Victor Ponta: Leader or politician

I spoke to the Prime Minister about this vision by addressing issues of foreign policy and domestic controversy. An exclusive interview for Q Magazine, Washington-Bucharest.

Poland and Turkey inspire me

You are at the end of a year during which you have met with almost all major counterparts in European, China and, recently, even with the U.S. Vice President Joe Biden. By comparison, what would be your model for governmental policies? Of course, missing is a visit to Moscow, but could Putinism be a model that you would promote in Romania?

No, definitely not. Russia does not resemble in any way any other country in the region and the model, which I am considering for Romania’s development is a model close to our country in size and development level. I am inspired by, for example, and try to use the good things that come from the way Poland, under Donald Tusk, has developed in recent years, but even looking a bit higher up, the very good things done ​​in recent years in Turkey. I think Poland and Turkey are countries to which any government of Romania should look in terms of economic and development policies.

With Turkey’s Prime-Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan
 

Do you evaluate the possible relationship between Poland – Turkey – Romania as an alternative in parallel to the strategic partnership with the U.S.?

Poland and Turkey could be natural and comparable allies of Romania, but there can be in no way an alternative to the partnership with the U.S., but rather we must be more important together, because Poland, Romania and Turkey mean much more together than if we take each country separately. For the U.S., such an alliance of the three countries may indeed be more strategically significant.

We have been allied with the United States for a long time. However, our benefits are only those of “security”, a concept that is present in all public discourses of Romanian officials. In specific terms, however, this partnership has not helped us, neither economically – the U.S. is 12^th on the list of investments in Romania – nor culturally, nor education wise, nor even in terms of equipping our Army. Qui prodest?

Maybe we cannot appreciate the fact that Romania has, indeed, a climate of security. If we did not have it, only then would we understand how important it is to know at all times that you are part of a very strong alliance and you have a security system guaranteed by the U.S., which remains the main political and military force in the world. I think this security provided by our partnership with the U.S. is more important than be seen or felt day to day. It is not enough or it is not all we can do together with the U.S. and, therefore, during my visit in October, I spent a great deal of time and energy to the idea that, after security, after political cooperation should also come economic cooperation. This is why I met with the big companies that have invested or invest in Romania and I try, especially in the two areas of energy and IT, to convince major American companies that Romania is the place where it pays to invest. In the years to come, we should have significant and tangible results.

With Joe Biden. White House. October 22nd, 2013
 

I have heard you saying during all the meetings in the United States that you want to give Romania a regional role. How? Our country is always in charts of “how not to…”. How do you want to reposition the country, especially in the foreign policy?

Our country is especially in charts that we Romanians make of “how not to”. Whenever I get to talk to those who come from abroad or to those who know us well, they all talk a lot nicer about Romania than Romanians do and they all have more confidence and see more potential than we see. We have our “mioritic” urge to believe that you cannot do anything, but this is just what I want – to remain in office and to prove that we have not used our potential, that we are naturally the largest and most powerful member of the EU in this region and that many see us better than we see ourselves. Lately, very often, I get to visit factories, such as Coca Cola or the Arctic plant in Gaesti, that practically already produce for all the networks in the area, and everyone in the region still looks to us when it comes to energy and mineral resources.

 „Roşia Montană” showed me whether allies stay with you or not

With respect to the Roşia Montană Project, you did not have the strength for a assumed decision ​​- like the model of Margareth Thatcher versus the miners -, you sent the draft to Parliament, though you knew very well that, according to the contract, Parliament has no “standing”, so to speak. You left time for street demonstrations, for the coagulation of a critical mass that has degenerated from ecological ideals to anti-system protests. Do you regret this? Would you do things differently now? Did you think of a solution, do you have a plan B if Parliament rejects the project?

I do not regret anything. On the contrary, what has happened confirmed to me that such an important decision, after 14 years in which nothing has been done, cannot be legitimately taken only by a Prime Minister and several ministers and it confirmed that the years of propaganda have left deep scars, that there are things that should be mended even in the way in which we saw things at the government level, and I refer to certain solutions that  the parliamentary committee has come up with. And I also got the chance to check something – whether allies remain with you even during difficult times. Otherwise, of course, there have been street demonstrations and probably more will come. As long as they were peaceful, you have seen a very different attitude of the Government and the police than in previous years. Surely, those who protest are entitled to do so and have their own righteousness. Nevertheless, the duty of making decisions belongs to me and the Government. Even if it comes from a confrontation, I like this role – to be the one that says how to do something, while everyone else tell you how not to do anything.

When setting royalties we must be pragmatic, but also reasonable!

Why doesn’t the Romanian government adopt the EITI standards (Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative), a voluntary agreement between the government and the mining companies that budget receipts and payments, in all forms auditable and verifiable independently from two sources, will be declassified? What do we have to hide?

We have absolutely nothing to hide; on the contrary, everything collected now is very public. To the extent that there are other standards of even greater transparency in the extractive industry, I will certainly support their urgent adoption.

Will we increase oil royalties after 2014? Have you have touched on this issue with representatives of the U.S. oil companies while in the abroad?

Of course I discussed this issue with American and European oil companies, because the idea is to have a royalty standard that is profitable both for the Romanian state and for a company looking to invest. Adopting a populist discourse, to take as much as we can, the highest royalties, can eventually lead, and it has happened often, to the decision of some companies to leave the country.

Together with congressman Michael Turner, co-President of  Romanian US Committee
 

This means charging as much as possible and in the end the royalty is zero because there is no one else to take from.

Exactly! I am convinced that by using European standards and being pragmatic, but also reasonable in how we build our fees, we will succeed in making more money for the budget, not just for the states’ public budget, but also for local budgets, but there will also be profitable and stimulating for companies to invest. Nobody wants to understand or does not want to talk, when it comes to the subject of shale gas, or even Rosia Montana or other exploitations of this kind, about the fact that you first need to find a company that for 4, 5, 6 years invests millions or even billions of euros, first, and only then it start to produce something. The idea that there’s a goose that lays golden eggs from the first day and we should take as many of them as possible is too simplistic and is used in a populist and politicizing public discourse in Romania.

Besides Chevron, which other companies have expressed their intention to extract shale gas in Romania? You stated, while in the U.S., that other companies are interested.

Yes, there are indeed many companies that already have a license for exploration. One of them is NIS, a company from Serbia, but which belongs to Gazprom. From my point of view, the more companies exploring, the better!

Romania needs to pass a separate legislation on shale gas

You know that currently there is no differentiated legislation; companies that want shale gas use the oil and gas law, where there are general conditions for any hydrocarbons exploitation without any difference. It is necessary to promote a separate law for shale gas!

I agree! Surely, we need a separate legislation and separate levels of fees, not only for shale gas but also, for example, for gas mining in the Black Sea, because there are not the same exploiting expenses in the Black Sea as in Prahova and then you cannot get the same level of royalties. However, if we also refer to shale gas and offshore mining, earlier than five years not even a single cubic meter will be extracted and Romania must adapt its legislation to what constitutes technological change in the future.

The great investors, especially those in the industry – ArcelorMittal and Alro – have demanded tax incentives for not reducing or not shutting down production. Will you agree?

The Government cannot allocate or provide other tax breaks than those allowed in Europe, otherwise it would be considered state aid, and we would have to recover them at the request of the European Commission. What we have been able to do, in terms of support for all manufacturers, not just Arcelor or Alro, we have already done, locally, and besides, Romania has argued, like I have argued at the European Council and the ministers at the energy councils, that, without a radical change in European Union policy towards energy prices and producers, Europe will become  uncompetitive. It will lose its major manufacturers.

ArcelorMittal already closed its factory in France!

Exactly, and there are many others who are moving their production capacities across Union borders in Ukraine, or in China, or in other countries, and in this case Europe is doomed to lose competitiveness if certain steps are not taken.

The greatest harm done to Romania

Where will the money to increase wages and pensions in 2014 come from?

The money to increase salaries and pensions in 2014 resulted from the economic growth, but there are many other debts, cases lost by the Boc Government because of aberrant decisions to cut salaries, pensions or to fire people, refunds that have started in 2005 with Law 247, which I will always consider the greatest harm done to Romania after 1989, the idea to return everything we did not have. Here, unfortunately, the trend is – in the public discourse – to support, otherwise legitimately, all requests for increased budgets for Health, Education, Infrastructure, salaries, pensions, but at the same time, those who say we need bigger budgets are saying that we need to lower taxes, which obviously cannot be done. Sometimes, when I am exasperated by this populist speech, I use a phrase that Florin Georgescu always used: when we will have taxes as those in Germany, we will have money for salaries, pensions, Health and Education like in Germany. You cannot have taxes as we have in Romania, education, and health like in Germany. Nevertheless, fortunately, the economic growth is real and it is bigger than expected, we have made cuts in unnecessary spending of public funds, and everyone wants to see the part of the cup that interests them, but it is obvious everything is going rather well.

What will the economy of the country look like in 2014, compared to 2013? Recently alarming figures were released about the underground economy reaching 28% of GDP, ahead of us being only Bulgaria.

You know very well that all these figures about the economy are not based on anything concrete, that if we knew exactly that is 28 or 88 or 8% have would also know where to fight the underground economy. I note that this is not a discussion about the level of taxes, because, like you said, Bulgaria has an underground economy bigger than Romania, even though it is the only country that has lower taxes.

Is the collection process flawed then?

I think the discussion here is more about a certain mentality; the state is still seen as an enemy, not as the one that collects taxes to pay for hospitals, teachers, schools and making roads, and we certainly have a lot of work to do regarding the system, but also our mentality. As well as collection, yes!

With the President World Bank, Mr. Jim Yong Kim
 

What strategy do you have for attracting foreign investment? Basically, despite a relatively stable political and economic climate and despite some positive macroeconomic results, foreign investment continuously decreases. These days, the new Ease of Doing Business ranking (World Bank) has been published, where Romania is ranked 73. In Georgia, the former President chose as a strategic objective “ascending” in the EDB ranking, and today Georgia ranks 8 (!). Can we talk about a similar strategy for Romania?

Yes, in the end, foreign investment in did not decrease, but we like to say that they do. In 2012, investments were higher than in 2011.

I disagree even with the figures given by the Central Bank. FDI attracted by Romania declined in 2012 to 1.6 billion euros. It is true, that has been the trend recorded, in the last three years, before the USL Government USL. But the level of foreign investment in 2012 is the lowest in the past 10 years. And in 2013, we stand much worse than in 2012.

Well, now it is important to see and what kind of investment we are talking about, financial investments or general consumer goods areas are one and the productive area is other, where we have given a lot of state aid, we have supported investment and new job creation. Obviously, all these rankings are important and we have a strategy for the economic group working for the Prime Minister on each indicator, but, ultimately, this is not only about the Government. The Government alone cannot create a stable political and economic climate. I think that those who see daily an enemy in the Government, then ask the Government to create a stable climate, are equally responsible. Otherwise, you gave the example of Georgia’s former president who led Georgia on the 8th and lost all elections, Georgians choosing someone else. Maybe there is a matter in it.

Macovei’s sect frustrated us over the years

38,540,639 euros. This is the amount that the Romanian state has paid between 2005-2012 as a result of convictions in the European Court of Human Rights, in Strasbourg. No answer! Have you considered a legal form by which to establish the legal and financial responsibility for these cases?

Unfortunately, all these convictions come for definitive and irrevocable court judgments. I still think, as a former magistrate, not just as the current Prime Minister, that the real hysteria that has been reigning for years the Romanian political life, to not be ever allowed to criticize, even with a word or with a flower the justice, brought us in the situation in which when mistakes occur, let no one pay. I know that 90 % of judges and prosecutors are honest, they do their duty properly, but the 10% who are wrong or act maliciously also benefit from this final immunity. I do not find it reasonable the fact that you cannot try to take legal action or fix the issue, even when things are obvious, because immediately the group propaganda – I call them all Macovei’s sect – starts to create a public scandal. I think that this frustrated us over the years and, obviously, sooner or later, we must put things in the right direction and to establish liability.

When you were in the opposition you have condemned the leaking transcripts in the press, during criminal investigations. You did nothing to stop this practice not even in your current Government. Why?

For the simple reason that it is not the Government who should do that!

The Justice Minister can do it!

We always notified the CSM and I regret the fact that neither the CSM, neither the DNA, nor the Prosecutor General’s Office did take any steps to stop what is currently illegal, the leaking transcripts in the press. Perhaps, together, in an effort between the political class and the media, we could find that regulation which will ensure that this kind of absolutely inadmissible situations will stop. But I hope that not again the Government will be the one stopping the DNA transcripts, but rather the DNA alone should do so.

But wasn’t it you who have credited Ms. Laura Codruţa Kövesi with impeccable morality that recommended her as head of the DNA?

Yes, unfortunately I sadly see that Mrs. Kövesi continues a system that has been mastered by former chief prosecutor, Mr. Daniel Morar, a system that generates files for the press, transcripts in the press and names that are given to the press only to attract attention, after which nothing happens. I think it is wrong way of thinking and I would be glad to see that the DNA changes this policy.

What does Victor Ponta think about?

Let’s talk about human resources in Romania! Especially since you brought at Victoria Palace an economic adviser from among the brilliant young people who have studied abroad, and I have appreciated the signal. There are over 40,000 young Romanians trained in major foreign Universities. A brain regain program through which these resources are redirected towards the country may be the key to sustainable development in Romania. The League of Romanian Students Abroad has prepared a turnkey full proposal: SMART Diaspora. Does the Government of Romania have the openness to implement such a program or a similar initiative?

Definitely there is. Unfortunately, once again, everything is expected from the Government and I do not think only we will be successful, as long as any young person who is currently studying at a foreign University sees daily just greater terrible things about his country, things that many are untrue. When you want to pay better such a young person, immediately everyone objects, and especially when you call someone to hold a public office in Romania, they are immediately and automatically converted into a criminal. It’s very hard to say that I am optimistic about attracting those extraordinary young people, who might work in Romanian public institutions.

A politician thinks about the next election, a leader thinks about the future generations. What do you think about?

I think I already won the election, so I do not have their care. Obviously I care about the balance-sheet I will be doing when I will leave office, how much was I able to do from what I wanted, how much did I fail, and, maybe, see what structural problems of the Romanian society prevents people, like me and many others, who come in office with the best intentions, with high desires, and do not manage to do all they intend.

Mugur Isarescu, whose name is circulated for a possible presidential candidacy of Romania, has just announced that he “has no plan to do so”. But another binomial which is circulated is Mircea Geoana – President, you – Prime Minister. Is that feasible? Could you team up with the one you once competed for Presidency of the party?

Absolutely, yes! I could make a team, as I do, in fact, a team with all former Presidents, with Ion Iliescu, with Adrian Nastase, as I have also a good relationship with Mugur Isarescu, Calin Popescu Tariceanu, people I respect, people that gave me very good advice, people who lived, from their own experience, many of the situations that I am facing. There is no question of making binomial or tandem, but the most important thing is that I want to learn as much as possible from all these people that I have mentioned, to try to do the good things they have done, and if I can, avoid their mistakes.

I believe that Mr. Geoana would avoid past mistakes! Speaking of the party, who do you see as the successor to the leadership of the party, should you be gaining a new dignity in the state and being forced to give up the presidency of PSD?

I was not and will not ever be a member of any different party except the Social Democratic Party.

No, I was not thinking of your exit from the PSD to enter the PDL! I was just thinking you would advance! I do not consider you the kind of man that subsides…

(We smile!) As you have seen, in our history, we have never really designated a successor. Nor Adrian Nastase designated Mircea Geoana, nor Mircea Geoana nominated me, so neither can I will be able to assign any success. PSD is a party too strong to accept the idea of ​​designation and are I am convinced that after me, it will choose the best President.

The fight is between the old generation and the new dolphins, between Liviu Dragnea, the most experienced and most valid successor, but who will be too busy with the criminal proceedings and the sanctions resulting from them, and the young, like Sova, Zgonea.

I do not see this battle between the youngest and Liviu Dragnea on the contrary!

I think you see it, but you do not publicly accept it. In addition, I have defined it more “brutal” as a battle; it is a state of mind! You know, just for the fact that PSD is a strong party, as you said, it has strong personalities. Each believes it has details for leading it: the oldest, the biased experience and longevity, the younger, the legitimacy of changing the mindset and vision. The social-democracy of 2014 would not the one in 2000!

I also think that next year Romania will end the transition cycle from communism to democracy! But all the ones you have named were part of the team that won in 2012, the biggest win in the history of the Social Democratic Party.

Can Ilie Sarbu be a future president of the PSD?

No, I do not see Ilie Sarbu as a future PSD president because he does not want this and because each generation has its say, then it supports the next, as he also supported me, so I did not think and I do not believe that us, the ones who you have cited, we will decide who the next president will be.

A few days ago, I also saw George Maior as an option as the future president of PSD. Personally, I think it is like George Maior would return to play in the C Division, he is a little overqualified, right?

I prefer not responding to speculation!

Who would you choose between a trustworthy person and a competent person?

Always the competent person. It is true that trust is important, but if a trustworthy person is incompetent or incapable, he can only hurt you. You must earn the trust of a competent person.

I hope I will be monitored by the Romanian Intelligence

The international theme of the day is the NSA surveillance over the planet. What will be Romania’s position towards these abuses, in the event of freezing the trade agreement between the U.S. and the EU?

Honestly, I think the trade agreement between the United States and the European Union is a good thing to be done, which has important chapters to negotiate, about which the public opinion knows less, and I am sure that this spying scandal will have an effect, but not on the Agreement. Needless to ruin something so important as the trade Agreement for something that has to do more with politics.

Work meeting with the Director of Central Intelligence Agency, John O. Brennan and George Maior
 

The German Foreign Minister, Guido Westerwelle, has the same position! Do you think that there is a fair balance between the technological progress and the right to privacy? Where would you be willing to give in?

I do not have intimacy since I serve, at least as the Chairman of the PSD, and less since I am Prime Minister. I think the balance is all wrong. Not between technological progress and the right to privacy, but between the right to privacy and right to information, and I think the media has the right, and it is normal and okay, to present everything I do as Prime Minister. When it comes to family life, there the balance and the equilibrium is seriously violated and, in fact, there is where a public person is affected. If anyone here would really find the correct line, I think it would do well for society as a whole.

The director of the U.S. intelligence community (DNI), James Clapper, had admitted, in the previous days, that to know the intentions of international leaders is a “fundamental principle” of intelligence, implicitly admitting spying on them. Have you ever felt you were watched? By Romanian or foreign services?

I hope I am monitored by the Romanian services in order to be protected if someone wants to hurt me and to have the proof that I personally do not do illegal things. Otherwise, the foreign services… I think I am not yet that important for them to be spending money with me.

You are modest, skillful and diplomat. I do not insist because I know you do not want to collide with anyone who would be spying on you, especially since you could never change that. So do not fear the Services! But what do you fear most?

Not to repeat the mistake of other politicians, to believe that there is no life after public office. I can even say that I think with pleasure about that races I will attend to, about my children’s events, about the things, about the books I will be reading when I will no longer be Prime Minister.

I had many other questions, but I will come back with them during the campaign – yours or others – when the answers will have consequences in the voting booth!

Then, let’s wait for that moment.